Gary Shandling: I don’t understand. I’ve done an American Masters for Bob Newhart, was that right? And I’m doing one for Carol Burnett. There’s no American masters about me. Is that right?
Interviewer: Yes.
Gary Shandling: Any chances that it is it doesn’t have to be, is it? Is it a nomination that year? What do you need? How many people have to write in? How does it happen? How is it chosen?
Interviewer: Honestly there’s one woman who is Ms. American Masters.
Gary Shandling: Who’s that?
Interviewer: Susan Lacy.
Gary Shandling: Susan Lacy, what kind of flowers does she like? Because I would like to see, you know, Bob Newhart and Carol Burnett. I would like to see Carol talk about. I seen Carol talk about me. Carol Burnett came on the Larry Sanders Show. She’d only done. She was mostly this all American comedic icon from The Carol Burnett Show, which was a network show. So they had pretty strict standards, especially what year did that show? Sixty seven. So there’s very strict standards. And we asked her to come on the Larry Sanders Show. And during the commercial break, like a talk show, commercial break, we say. We’ll be right back. We kept the cameras on and she leans over and says. You know, I enjoyed rehearsing that sketch with you, that Tarzan sketch. But. I saw your balls and we didn’t know. She claims that she came up with that, which she may have because I don’t know if we put any words in there, but I know we wanted her to say something that she didn’t say on The Carol Burnett Show. And that’s one of the secrets about Carol, is I think she might have said something even more unexpected. She gets it. She came on that show to play. It’s so fantastic. You know, this sense of play, the sense of play that requires the heart. I’m not trying to prove anything. That’s what she’s got. That’s one of the qualities she’s got.
Interviewer: With her show is one of the things like the way all the cast would crack up.
Gary Shandling: This thing with the cast would crack up became one Saturday Night Live started to do sketch work. They have a very strict rule that you can’t. Break character and laugh. It rarely happens and I can think of three times when it did happen on Saturday Night Live and it would be considered corny on Saturday night. Why? And also, they were doing something different. They weren’t going to do regular sketch work. I think that. Them cracking each other up was really part of the core chemistry of that show. I think that they were playing. I think they were playing, Carol’s told me. It was play. She had such a good time. On her show, when I talked to her about it, I have trouble relating to it because I don’t have that much fun. She said. I had so much fun. I had that much fun. Now, I don’t know. I think Harvey Korman would probably say he had fun. Until he went home. Yeah, yeah. But Harvey is not one of the women in comedy being saluted by the American Masters. Not today. He’ll be disappointed, too.
Interviewer: That is not one of the things to like with. Felt like she was playing all these different characters, but we almost we felt like we kind of knew her.
Gary Shandling: I am I’m just sure this has all been said. Yes. But the simplicity in that, yes. Is the whole ball of wax? Because she had a heart and was enough of a person that beyond these sketches, she could talk to the audience as Carol as Carol Burnett. I didn’t know if you knew her last name, maybe you’d forgotten for a second. So, yes, it’s unusual. It’s unusual. It’s a common problem with sketch players that they may not be able to be themselves and address an audience. She had that ability. She was the grounding force. On that show. And my gosh. I don’t recall now a TV show that was ever a sketch comedy show or any kind of show where someone talked to the audience like that at the beginning. So, I mean, I think it did ground people and made it easier for them to go wherever they were gone. Think of half. Yes. You think it’s something for me, okay? Okay. Hide behind the camera. But I don’t mind. You know, I don’t mind seeing your face. I know you were signaling me for a second, okay? Because I kind of am aware of the entire room, but that’s OK. I mean, it’s a friend of mine said when I go on a talk show, it’s like the animal trainer that brings on the cat. And I’m like the cat. The people don’t know whether they should touch it or what is going to happen because it’s looking around. If you saw me on any talk shows last month, you’d know what you mean, especially Donald Trump. He was guest hosting for Regis. Yeah. He said, how did you select the best episodes of the Larry Sanders thing? And I said, it’s very similar to the process of the Miss Universe contest. I said, yes, because the Miss Universe contest is yours, right? He said, I own the Miss Universe contest. I said, Now, how do you know that they’re the most beautiful woman in the universe? He said, Because we scour the world. I said no. That’s the world. Yours is the universe. Let’s stick to the topic. That’s true, I hadn’t thought of that. Is a great. But anyway, the way Donald Trump tried, Donald Trump knows. There’s no life on other planets.
Interviewer: I’ve just been thinking about things like I’ve been watching a lot of her old shows. Some of the things that people would ask her during those Q&As, and they were so sort of like just things that you wouldn’t think people wouldn’t ask. You know, Gregory Peck or wouldn’t ask. I mean, it seemed like. People are so more than comfortable. I mean, do you remember any of those questions or just, you know, I just.
Gary Shandling: I’ll tell you what I think is more important. I don’t remember any of the questions. I remember the tone. I remember her looking up at the audience and listening to someone and then saying something. And that’s more important. That connection is what lasts. It doesn’t matter what the words were. She talked to them, she listened. She was open, she was present. She was present. She’s a she’s a she’s she’s just got she’s a she’s a. I think you can mostly use that hunk right there, right? Just the uh’s. See, I know how you edit, so I don’t worry because I’m going to get some dental work done in a couple minutes. She is she’s very present. So she’s talking to people. And you sense that she’s honest and she is. That’s separate from the sketch work. I happen to know for a fact that in the 80s and 90s, networks were talking about variety shows. I could mentioned the people that they considered. I can mentioned some that went on. And I don’t want to because they did not work. And the problem was the person, while extraordinarily gifted, going in and out of characters, couldn’t connect with the audience. So they didn’t have a personality to latch on to. So they knew. That’s Carol in that character, it’s very subconscious. It’s like. I’m a woman deep down. Let’s not get into it. I’m straight, and I actually thought if I was gay, I’d probably want to be straight because it’s one of those grass is greener kind of things. This is just for your. I’m going to get you’re going to get you can’t get two good quotes from me and then that’s all you need. What about. I did, I so Carol is a special person and it come. It is about her heart. It’s about actually who she is. We can talk about her talent. Well, but her heart. When I finish the Larry Sanders show intuitively, I called Carol a couple of months after I finished it. And, you know, I don’t know Carol so well. We had some chemistry throughout some times and there was a very, very little sex, really. And. According to her and. I said I said, how did you feel when you finished the show? Because I have actually had two series and finished two series and another. And I said, I’m kind of trying to decide what’s next and really did it. And she said, well, don’t ever forget why you started. She said, I really thought about this, she said. I sat with myself and I remembered why we got or why I got involved. And then she said, I think why we got involved in the first place doing what we do. And it’s just about making people laugh. It’s the fun of making people laugh. She brings it down to that simplicity. And. It connected. It’s like a shorter version of that, you can cut around that. That’s it. Yeah, cause you can cut to Tim Conway.
Interviewer: That’s a cliche thing of know comedy is tragedy plus time or whatever. I mean, do you think that that is true? Just like that. Part of the reason that we relate to, Carol, as with a comic that we really feel for. Is that you do sense. But there’s more going on than is on the surface. I don’t know if you feel that with Carol at all. I mean, I know she’s had, you know, her room. Her life has been. She’s had a fair amount of tragedy. It’s just something that she’s vulnerable.
Gary Shandling: Well, yes. I don’t remember the historical timing of when the audience would know what Carol had gone through at what times. But the vulnerability is there and you feel that that’s a person who has experienced some life, had some dos, doesn’t take it for granted. Isn’t so self-centered that it is me, me, me, me, me, me, really, truly. I mean, that was a she loved those other people on the show. I mean. She thinks Lyle Waggoner was important, but that’s a joke. I’m kidding. She does. I met them all. I’ve met them all. They were all they all just love her. She always said to me, she said to me, Tim is the funniest. She I remember her saying to me, Tim Conway’s the funniest man. There Tim Conway is the funniest man. And. I think Harvey Korman actually said that to me, too, at different times. And if you can ever get Tim Conway on a on a run. He is really funnier than anybody realizes of this generation because he’s still he’s got a very fast. Mind, and you don’t want to mix it up with some of the physical stuff that he does, which is great, but his mind, you know, is fast.
Interviewer: He was here. He’s hilarious.
Gary Shandling: Well, then, you know.
Interviewer: Was it?
Gary Shandling: Did you have Harvey here?
Interviewer: Yes.
Gary Shandling: Did you have enough light? It was interesting, wasn’t it?
Interviewer: Actually, it was actually. He did. And he said some really like moving things actually just about. Comedians coming from these events. Said he’s only comfortable in the character and he sort of thinks that’s true of Carol, too.
Gary Shandling: You’re not going to use this. But, you know, the funny part is I started off as a television writer, so I was writing for sitcoms. So I was writing for some sitcom that. Oh. I was writing when I was 24 and Harvey Korman sitcom that ran for six episodes in whatever year and I was just starting out and I ended up. This is really true. I ended up in the bathroom at the same time as him, and I was standing next to him, you know. Doing what…I like to do and. I said, Harvey, I’m thinking of doing stand up comedy. And he came to the nightclub to see me. And I’ll never forget it. He said. I think you’re talented. I think you’re going to be successful. And very unhappy. Yeah, yeah, but you know that that’s had to be misunderstood, he’s a deep guy. I think he should. Don’t use that. It’s a great little story. But, you know, you’re gonna be out of tape, are using digital, gets that stuff.
Interviewer: What about just again with the women? How was she different from Lucy? Lucy broke some ground, and then was Carol doing something different? From Lucy, like doing so much physical comedy. Not that many women do such hard physical comedy like she did.
Gary Shandling: I can’t think of another woman who did that. You know, you’d I would jump to Gilda Radner afterwards. And Gilda had a big heart. Lucy. Carol was. Happy. Carol was happy. I didn’t meet Carol during the show. It’s a it’s from knowing her as I know her. It’s from looking at the show. You can see it. Yeah, it’s you can’t hide that stuff. But women, let’s think of the women that did physical comedy other than Harvey and Tim Conway, who were also two women who were great at physical comedy. So. I don’t know how that show got formed and how they found her. I asked her in an interview we pressed. Are you repressed? And then it comes out and she said, what do you what do you mean repressed? Maybe a little repressed and. She’s she’s just got such a. Heart.
Interviewer: Was it did you because you watched a lot of the Sid Caesar shows and all of that, right. Imogene Coca?
Gary Shandling: Yeah. Thanks for the help. I couldn’t.
Speaker No. So, I mean, and the leaders like Martha Raye and some of those. She is, Carol. I mean, the one thing I thought was, you know, back then it seemed like it was. You know, you couldn’t you could be funny, but then you weren’t really feminine. And Carol seems like she did do both, really. I don’t know if you think that was new.
Gary Shandling: Again, if you take Imogene Coca and what was the other, if you take Imogene Coca and Martha Ray and really way before my time, but looking at the tapes, I didn’t see them again, open up and talk to the audience and reveal themselves. Carol. As far as the femininity factor. She was very womanly. And. That. Yes, it has many layers to it. And she brought that with her and. That’s a real woman. That’s why I’m here today, because Carol Burnett is a real woman. She’s a real woman. She’s a real woman. That’s what she is. And she happens to be funny. On top of it. Where, you know, that’s what they’re looking for every day. They’re looking for every day, able to do those sketches and then, you know, and I think capable of being far, you know, hipper than those times. I remember she she would tell me when I would talk to her. And I can’t remember which character you always like to do. She wanted to go further and she would get a kick out of sometimes doing the different versions of things that couldn’t be done on the network. I mean, God knows what she’d do if she was working today and given more, you know, it would be interesting.
Interviewer: I was just thinking, like, what,.
Gary Shandling: Elegance, elegance and. Yeah, absolutely. It seems like I would.
Interviewer: It was on from 67 to 70. And you think about what was going on. The country at that time, there was a lot of stuff going on in the Smothers Brothers were kind of. Addressing it a little bit in their comedy, Carol, really wasn’t. I guess I don’t know, I just wondered, do you think like that was in some ways? Made it more timeless for humor. I mean, was it? Or was it just a different. No time in terms of what was acceptable.
Gary Shandling: Well, I’m putting myself in Carol’s head right now. I think Carol would say there was enough trouble going on in the world. I’m here to help you forget for a minute because I. I love you. And let’s have a laugh. I don’t think it’s her way to you know, she’s not the Smothers Brothers, were I? I’m big fans of the Smothers Brothers. I’m not sure that I think one of them’s adopted. But that stays between us. I think that Carol chose to do pure entertainment. And. I remember I was in college then and sort of involved in the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. I don’t want to say which side I was on. And yet I remember watching many of the Carol Burnett episodes because they are all funny. She deserves the credit for the chemistry that she had with Harvey and and Tim and all all the others. And I guess Tim and Harvey still go on the road and do sketches together and. And it works. Yes. She didn’t get political that I know of. I can’t unless this meant get out of Vietnam. I don’t think it did. I don’t think it did. I don’t really know where she lands on the political issue. I have to ask her sometime.
Interviewer: Yeah, you’re right. That’s basically what she sa as her job. Yeah. To make people laugh.
Gary Shandling: There is a simplicity. To what she does, that is perfect, her essence is that. And that would have been a time in television where if you if you take a turn towards getting into social issues, as the Smothers Brothers did, it became something else. I mean, ultimately, they took the Smothers Brothers off. Well, you don’t want to do that to Harvey.
Interviewer: Don’t go there.
Gary Shandling: I didn’t. Should I rephrase it? Should I be funnier?
Interviewer: Oh, just I guess knowing I mean, having had two shows yourself for several years and just how hard it is or rare it is. STo have one show that works over 11 years for over a decade. And still have it the. Something that the people respond to.
Gary Shandling: I was thinking of many things there. That’s what I was doing. What do we have, about eight minutes left? Yes. Believe in God. That’s what I was going to say. That show ran for 11 years. I don’t know what the ratings were. I think it was extraordinarily popular. Take Carol Burnett out of that equation, those guys. Everyone’s funny. You’ve got an empty spot there. Yes, I don’t. I can’t think of another show that ran for eleven years and I can’t think of another sketch show that came on afterwards. I couldn’t duplicate it. It’s unique. It’s completely unique. It had a completely unique feel because she was playing with those guys and enjoying it. I talked about how many shows did you do? Because, you know, my shows are complicated and have many layers to them. And I have been involved in writing and so forth and so on. And it’s not the greatest fun in the world. But she had she loved the writers. She loved being there. And she was glorious. That’s it. That’s Carol Burnett. She’s glorious. I mean, so when she comes out, she’s just having. She’s shown herself and having fun. And. She’s just, uh, you know, that’s what makes her. That’s what makes a star. I think she’s a real star. I can’t think of another. How long was the Lucy show on how long? I can’t think of another. You know, everyone’s great. Candice Bergen is great. And we could go through the list. But doing that sketch show for eleven years and having people respond to it, they capture the feeling and of the times. I remember thinking this is really funny. And it should be time. I think it is timeless.
Interviewer: But does it capture the feeling in the times, you think I mean, I guess just.
Gary Shandling: I do, because I think that people weren’t at the beginning, so ready to see in the media comments about, you know, there was that separation with the media and what was going on. What was she going to do, a sketch about protesting the Vietnam War? I don’t know where that goes myself right now. Tim Conway is, what, a hippie. And we can just not think about it. If they they they came out of a contemporary vaudeville situation and committed 100 percent. Well, if you commit 100 percent of what you are. You’re. That’s talent. Does it need to? Can I break it down, please? I might be. I think I should have meditated before because I want to get her essence. I want to get her essence.
Interviewer: We’re talking about–.
Gary Shandling: See, it’s very important. I just want to see this story again that when I finish my show, I called her intuitively. I didn’t come. I don’t call many people go, hey, I just finished my show. What do you I don’t know, Carol, well enough to do that intuitively. And she’s not, as I as I said, maternal. I don’t feel that way about it. But something connects. And I said and she said, don’t forget why you started to make people laugh. And I think that’s the core for her. And she committed to that 100 percent, and I think she gave that. I think she gave a gift. So she wasn’t interested in making a statement, as far as I know. But what a gift in rough times to be able to turn out something and see people laughing.
Interviewer: Sure. Was she just. The last thing like. Comedy was changing at the time?
Gary Shandling: What year was it again?
Interviewer: 67 to 78.
Gary Shandling: Well, you see sixty seven to seventy eight. And Saturday night Live started 75. Right. I remember very clearly working comedy clubs and wanting to get home to watch Saturday Night Live. I said that there’s something different going on. On a Saturday Night Live goes to Monty Python TV. Monty Python TV was doing it before Saturday Night Live. That sensibility. And then they grabbed it and they went sort of counterculture. So there they were doing The Carol Burnett Show. With an edge. And then TV was changing. However, had they found somebody like Carol Burnett and said, you want this, I’m not naming the names. I’m not going to name the names. I know two people where they tried to put together a variety show primetime, and it didn’t work because of the person’s personality didn’t come through. You don’t really want to sit there. Saturday Night Live was smart enough to have a guest host. So you had somebody hosting. Think about it. You can’t just watch sketches. That makes it out of context, that puts it out of context. Carol, put it in context. It’s a human being. Well, that’s not to be underrated. She’s a human being. She’s not a show business animal. I wish that she was answer. I wish she had been on Saturday Night Live. I don’t know why. I think it’d be a fascinating. I think she could do a good go right at it. Why hasn’t that happened?
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